SNP's local income tax idea

It's unworkable

Alex Salmond has proposed a local income tax to replace council tax in Scotland, and he is courting the LibDems to support him on it.

The main reason local income tax is a bad idea is that it puts too much pressure on a small band of people - workers.

In the UK as a whole, we have 62 million people, of whom 29.56 million people work i.e. 47% of the population support the other 53% (the bulk of whom are pensioners, the next largest group is children, followed by housewives, the sick and the unemployed). Income tax and national insurance on this group already raise the lions share of tax money. The rest of tax is spread on the whole population except children - VAT, fuel duties, alcohol and cigarette duty, council tax.

What Salmond is proposing is to take the council tax (which falls on a wide range of people) and dump it all on the workers (a smaller group who are already burdened).
You can see straightaway what will happen if demographics change and the pensioner group increases - the local income tax will have to rise to meet the bill, while the old in comfortable houses live off the backs of the young.

Salmond proposes to get round this by saying that the local tax will be fixed at 3% and will not rise - and he hopes to make up the difference by asking for a subsidy from the Department of Work and Pensions of £400 million. The DWP currently pays this to Scotland as council tax rebates for lower income people. But of course if you abolish the council tax, then you abolish the rebate and there is nothing to pay. And in any case why should central govt subsidise such a mad scheme? The DWP is right to say NO.

Also, the SNP are supposed to want Scotland to be independent - what on earth are they doing proposing schemes that will only work if they get a subsidy from England and Wales? 

Of course the LibDems are daft enough to go along with this and vote with the SNP in the Scottish Assembly.

What scuppered Margaret Thatcher's poll tax was the way the money levied per person kept ballooning. The local income tax will be the same - they'll start with 3% and end up having to raise the rate sharply as demographics change

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Re: SNP's local income tax idea (#1)

The Lyons Inquiry pretty much comprehensively debunked the idea of a local income tax.  Link to the chapter that talks about LIT is here:

http://www.communities.gov.uk/documents/localgovernment/pdf/158358.pdf

A few tasters:

7.185 In fact, moving away from a property-based tax to an income tax would mean a significant rebalancing of the tax burden away from retired households and onto the working-age population. As shown earlier in this chapter, council tax liability is spread throughout adult life, while an individual’s income tax and VAT liability is typically concentrated during their working life. Any decision to replace council tax with income taxes would therefore require a political judgement that retired households should, on average, pay a reduced burden, and younger working households a larger one.

7.186 Again, the crucial issue is what definition of fairness, or ‘ability to pay’ is applied. If income were the only measure of ability to pay then this shift would arguably be a fair one. However, I am concerned that this would neglect other relevant factors. I am not convinced, for example, that a pensioner household with a relatively modest income but significant savings or housing equity, is less able to pay than a young family with a larger income but no other assets. In this light I have some concerns about whether abandoning property taxes for income taxes would be fair; in practice this might simply replace one sort of perceived unfairness with another.

 

 

Re: SNP's local income tax idea (#2)

The self-employed, particularly in cash-based businesses or businesses with high asset replacemet costs ( such as car hire) would have a field day.    The CSA have major porblems trying to prove exactly how much 'income' self-employed people have, as do the Inland Revenue.  A council would have no chance.

You all know self-employed people who brag how little tax they pay yet drive flash cars, live in big detached rural houses etc.

Re: SNP's local income tax idea (#3)

Yup. Both you and Red Rooster make very good points.

1. it's unfair because it concentrates the tax burden too much on those who work, and

2. the beauty of council tax is that property is tangible and doesn't move. The size of your property is quite a good way to tell if you have wealth. Whereas chasing the self-employed to pay this would be a nightmare

I don't understand why Scots can't see this.  Is it that the people who vote SNP are not working and are thinking only about how they can shift the burden onto others?

Re: SNP's local income tax idea (#4)

From my previous thread on reforming council tax, the case for a LIT collapsed.

The wealthy pensioner would end up getting wealth redistributed their way. Part of the National Insurance sham, is that there are so many rich people benefiting from an outdated structure, at the expense of those who need it more.

It wouldn't help tax avoidance. Even more wealth being shifted into the acconts of wives and daughters of the multi-millionaires.

There's a tax that could work. You wouldn't be able to avoid it. And it would fairly tax the richer, primarily the aristocracy. A Land Value Tax.

Just over 350,000 people own around 70% of the land in this country. In Scotland, around 100 people own over 30% of the land.

Certain projects, like say, public transport extensions, makes the land around it, and the land it is on, artificially expensive. It would be easier for the BoE to decrease interest rates with a LVT.

Maybe we should replace property taxes with this LVT, maybe we keep some form of property tax. But I'm attracted to the idea of an LVT.

Re: SNP's local income tax idea (#5)

Yes, LVT comes up from time to time. Samuel Brittan wrote an article on it in the Financial Times. You can read it here.

Gordon Brown set up an interest group to look at it in 2005, but the full Land Value Tax was shot down by vested interests.

But something called the Planning Gain Supplement, which is a very modest version of LVT did eventually gain royal asset in 2007. To read more about it, click here.  It doesn't come into effect till this year, but local authorities should get the money. And it applies to the entire UK not just England.

Re: SNP's local income tax idea (#6)

A much better system than local income tax would be to levy a tax based upon the value of someone's house - it could be adjusted for the elderly and unwaged with a rebate system... this system was called the rates and was vastly fairer than the Council Tax which has hugely benefitted the rich because of the way the bands are constructed.

A local income tax would be no improvement because of the reasons given by others here - and the very rich would avoid it the most.

Re: SNP's local income tax idea (#7)

Salmond is setting an elephant trap for the Government.

Either he gets the Council Tax rebate: and LIT goes ahead and he makes the majority better off. So he wins.
or
he does not get it, blames Labour and wins more seats.

As to whether it is feasible,?
Winners vs losers is the game.

Re: SNP's local income tax idea (#8)

Salmond has already set an elephant trap for the government - the tory party.  Should the tories  win in 2010,  the scots will probably opt for independence to get away from them.   Labour has now got 2 traps to deal with and it mustn't fall into either or it's history.

Salmond is actually looking at   win-win  X  win-win.

Re: SNP's local income tax idea (#13)

Are Scots really so foolish to fall for such childish politics? Isn't Salmond insulting them with his gimmicks?

Re: SNP's local income tax idea (#14)

Well judging by the voting patterns they like it.

Re: SNP's local income tax idea (#9)

I think the Lib Dems would be fools to support it. The SNP proposal is fixed 3p in the pound. So it would take all discrection from local councils as to how much to tax. Most local government spending is from the central government already block grant, so the simpler solution to get the same result would be to cut local taxation entirely and, increase the national income tax by 3p in the pound and increase block grants propotionately.
Of course that would be seen as what it is, an overriding of local democracy and a tax hike. saying something is local sounds nice though this is centralising.
Salmond wants the unionist parties to refuse to pass this, then he can point once more how much better Scotland would be without the English, and not have to take the flak if this is indroduced and turns out as a disaster.
Cynical politics and someone should expose him (but no one will).

Re: SNP's local income tax idea (#10)

Local income tax would be a disaster, both practically and politically.  Snowflake is right that it has real potential to become a kind of poll tax in reverse.

Raising income tax is bad for the economy because of all the disincentive effects it brings with it, discouraging people from working harder.  On a local level, unless the percentage is allowed to vary from place to place, it will impoverish local authorities in poor areas with large numbers of low income workers and unemployed, which will demand to be compensated through huge subsidies from national government.

Elections are won and lost on the middle ground these days and a local income tax would be electoral suicide with professional floating voters like myself.  My fiancee and I currently pay about £1000 council tax per year in our one-bedroom flat, which would rise to something like £4000 based on our joint income under a 3% local income tax.  This is based on fairly average salaries for professional thirtysomethings in London.  This will go down like a lead balloon.

Re: SNP's local income tax idea (#11)

I think it's interesting that what Salmond is effectively asking for is that Council Tax rebate money, which is currently targeted towards the most in need, should instead be evenly distributed across the Scottish population as a whole, regardless of need.  It really would be robbing the poor to give to the better off.

I don't know if this idea of having a centrally set and administered LIT has really been analysed enough either.  Would this not pretty much be the effective death of local government in Scotland?  Who on earth would want to go into local politics if the only thing you could do is effectively choose which services to close, with absolutely no power on extra revenue raising at all?

One interesting point from the Lyons Inquiry is that Britain is fairly unusual in only allowing Councils to raise revenue through a property tax.  Most other countries use a combination of methods- not just LIT, but also local business taxes and such.  If anything, the argument from Lyons should be to give councils more flexibility in how they are able to raise revenue- whereas Salmond's proposal is pretty much the only way possible to ensure there is even LESS flexibility in the system!

Re: SNP's local income tax idea (#12)

Well lets wait and see how it pans out. At least there is a genuine intent on reform being put into practice. Whereas all we've had from other quarters is talk. Talk, talk gets you know where if its not followed by action.

Re: SNP's local income tax idea (#15)

My understanding is the local income tax would be something like a surcharge on incomes over ? £25,000 taxable.
So the poor will NOT be hit, those on benefit will NOT be hit: they will end up neutral.

The Rebate used for low payers will be used to pay for the LIT of those earning less than the limit (£25,000?) who pay council tax now but will pay nothing.
So the winners and losers will be:

Winners:
Low paid
Those earning less than the taxable limit at which the tax is payable.
Some paying  a little extra tax but less than the council tax they used to pay.

Neutral:
Very low paid, those on benefits.

Losers:
Those earning more than the limit whose extra tax paid is greater than the Council tax they would have paid.

Uncertain
Those with property and no taxable income .. but who currently pay council tax. I assume there will be some charge ? If not then I'm selling up and moving to Scotland!:-)

Re: SNP's local income tax idea (#16)

Do the Scots have enough workers earning over £25k to make it work? The figures suggest they don't, which is why they are asking for a subsidy from London.

In other words this is an SNP policy that can only work with English money.

Re: SNP's local income tax idea (#17)

Have you considered that the idea is to get London to refuse to subsidise it?  Then they can start broadcasting to the scots that London doesn't want them?

Re: SNP's local income tax idea (#18)

Yes, but surely the Scots understand that it's not London's job to subsidise them at every turn. If they want to be treated with respect by the other parts of the UK (and their main complaint is that they don't get respect) they have to stand on their own feet and act like grown-ups. Where is their pride?
 
They are acting like a nation of bludgers. Half of me thinks Wendy Alexander was right and we should hold a referendum ASAP. It would clear the air and resolve everything. If the SNP lose, then all their game playing becomes pointless. And given Scottish propensity to think that London should pay for everything, they will certainly not vote for independence.  

Re: SNP's local income tax idea (#20)

But there you go.  From a scottish nationalist perspective there is no UK and London is in a foreign country.  To a scottish nationalist they are noyt part of the UK, they are a country under occupation.

The scots will get thereir referendum as promised - in 2010.   Salmond will take great delight in pointing out that he is giving his countrymen their referendum as promised,  whereas  Labour's promises over the EU treaty? 

Re: SNP's local income tax idea (#21)

This site needs to start an award for 'most obscure and pointless way of bringing the EU treaty into a discussion.'

Re: SNP's local income tax idea (#22)

the debate on this link is referenda.  Therefore it is perfectly acceptable to use the attitude towatds one to the attitude towards the other

Re: SNP's local income tax idea (#23)

No it isn't, because one is something obsessively covered by political geeks and which has almost no relevance to or immediate impact on the outside world, and the other will have a massive impact on the lives and budgets of hundreds of thousands of ordinary people.  The fact you believe you can equivocate one with the other just shows what a massive bubble europhobes live in.

Re: SNP's local income tax idea (#24)

If you follow this cahin up 3 or 4 links you will find it's Snowflake who brought it up.   Funnily enough,  that's the same snowflake that started this page.  Perhaos you would like to inform snowflake that they are not allowed to steer and expand their own debate. 

No, didn't think so.

Re: SNP's local income tax idea (#19)

The Treasury subsidies Benefit recipients in Scotland by £400M - the Council Tax Rebate.

The Treasury (or rather Mr Brown ) are saying: If you abolish Council Tax, you do not get a rebate..

Which is in theory correct but in practice means a reduction in grants to Scotland..

hence the political row.

Frankly IF Gordon Brown is digging his own grave with this. Much as I think the Scots are a bunch of malingering whingers (  :-)  ) , to take £400M away from them because they decide to change Council Tax to a system Gordon does not agree with is politically stupid... in Scotland.

And Labour will end up losing lots more seats to the SNP.

Gordon may very well be correct. A LIT may not work. Let the SNP make a mess of it.

But to prevent them implementing it by penalising them for doing it is political myopia of the first order.

All the SNP need to do is say "we could do it but Labour are penalising us..".

In all seriousness, if this policy continues it is political suicide for Labour in Scotland..






Re: SNP's local income tax idea (#25)

We should let them do it.  It would be a complete disaster.

Our Lib-Dem council is always going on about it - I don't think many of them even understand what it would entails, they only care that it's an alternative to council tax.

 

Re: SNP's local income tax idea (#26)

I still say, wait and see; the proof of the pudding is in the eating.